I just realized, you might wonder how therapy is tied to philosophy. The behavioral schools might not be, but therapy is often based in finding meaning. I go by the Carl Rogers/humanistic schools of thought anyway.

Also there wasn't a /pol/ board to post on and I don't want to spam you.

>>16901
We're nihilists and absurdists here (with a touch of cynicism although some claim they're stoic...), I don't think we'll be very interested in therapy talk or have anything that you would consider meaning to life. I mean it's fine as a topic but when you say find meaning as the ultimate goal of therapy, I don't think you'll be satisfied with the meanings we provide or consider it worthy of calling it therapy to arrive at those meanings.

But maybe you could save us all a lot of time and just go ahead and tell what kind of meaning you want to steer your clients towards.

You know, some meanings that people arrive to motivates them to take their own lives. I doubt you would still call that therapy, now would you?

>>16903
>But maybe you could save us all a lot of time and just go ahead and tell what kind of meaning you want to steer your clients towards.
I don't steer clients towards any particular meaning. That's unethical. It's the meaning they make for themselves, or lack thereof.

>I don't think you'll be satisfied with the meanings we provide or consider it worthy of calling it therapy to arrive at those meanings.
>You know, some meanings that people arrive to motivates them to take their own lives. I doubt you would still call that therapy, now would you?
I would follow them into the valley of the shadow of death. If I don't follow them there, then they'll be alone with it. What use is that? They're still going to feel that way when they get home and are alone. So, I want to talk about suicide, if that's on their mind. It's empathy for the suicidal wish, and I would call it therapy. I have some obligations to the state and to my license to report if they are *imminently* going to try and kill themselves, but we can always weigh the pros and cons of suicide.
I'm not saying all therapists are comfortable with that, though. Some have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to reporting. Many anons have had a really bad experience as a result.

>>16905
Ok, so idea is to be there and follow, not steer. And then make them feel less alone.

Sounds good. Although, the therapist would need to be an enlightened being, because otherwise you won't just follow the clients wherever and genuinely from the depths of your heart care about it and care about them unless you have your own shit in order. I mean I understand you can always do it as a job, but to actually be there in a spiritual sense, you know, it actually depends on where the client wants to go. The therapist cannot just postpone or put aside their own life, even if they get paid. I mean, there has to be some kind of, something common between them, You won't just follow someone into the weeds indefinitely considering that you have your own shit to deal with. How much can you care about someone else when you haven't even given yourself enough care to face things that are and would be appropriately called - dire...

Idk

Sounds noble, I'm just wondering if it's actually how it goes and whether or not it's feasible

I mean, look at it this way, a person who has not yet given their own self proper care (because they just don't have it inside them) cannot really deeply care about someone else who is actually in much deeper shit and requires even more care, because it's just mechanically impossible. I understand that it can be possible to make it seem like it or even convince the client that they care, but I'm saying that it's mechanically impossible.

So from that I would be willing to deduce that if the client is really in deep deep shit, no matter what the intentions of the therapist are, they won't follow them there into the shadow of the valley of death or whatever, unless the therapist is enlightened being. Having went there for themselves, in their own case etc.

And if the therapist doesn't deeply care, we'll obviously then there's no warmth and no deep empathy there anyway, even if they may pose as if they are there with them and keeping them company or holding their hand. It would be all just theatrics, even with the best of intentions in the conscious mind of the therapist.

Or let me put it to you this way, first of all a therapist can only imagine the level and depth of negativity that is the extreme that they have in their own life experienced and have a reference point for. They cannot follow someone somewhere where they have never been and cannot imagine which is very hard to do if it hasn't been their own life experience.

And second, a therapist, with a belly full of food, and a comfortable warm room, sitting in a chair cannot go where David Goggins is at 170th mile, but the person sitting across him, might have been at that point for I don't know a year for example. You follow me, it's just, some of these things sound good, but our mechanically impossible.

>>16906
>following a client indefinitely at the expense of your own self-care
That's what each therapist determines their comfort with. What boundaries you set is up to you. Some therapists who counsel suicidal clients give those clients their personal phone and say they can call them any time of the day or night, if their deescalation plan isn't working.
Ultimately, my aim is to be 100% attuned to a client for the 50 minutes we are together. I can take care of my needs once I'm off the clock.
>Sounds noble, I'm just wondering if it's actually how it goes and whether or not it's feasible
Much like enlightenment, deep empathy and unconditional positive regard is something to strive for. Its feasibility is always in question. How do we know if we've reached it?
>a person who has not yet given their own self proper care (because they just don't have it inside them) cannot really deeply care about someone else who is actually in much deeper shit and requires even more care, because it's just mechanically impossible
Yeah. A therapist has to get their own unfinished business in check first. That doesn't mean they have to resolve all of their issues, but they should not let that get in the way of their work with clients.
>Having went there for themselves, in their own case etc.
There are near death experiences, paranormal or spiritual experiences, and psychedelic experiences, all of which can produce a similar effect. Even with those, though, they don't lead to a perfect understanding of what a client is going through.
>And if the therapist doesn't deeply care, we'll obviously then there's no warmth and no deep empathy there anyway, even if they may pose as if they are there with them and keeping them company or holding their hand. It would be all just theatrics, even with the best of intentions in the conscious mind of the therapist.
That's why the third pillar is congruence (authenticity), next to empathy and unconditional positive regard. That's in the humanistic school anyway.
>You follow me, it's just, some of these things sound good, but our mechanically impossible.
True, I cannot be you or have a perfect understanding of you. It's mechanically impossible, so why does deep human connection feel so powerful?

>How do we know if we've reached it?
Not something that's going to be simply measured and quantified. And it's not on or off either. But I'm just saying that not every client not every therapist is going to have the ability and the depth for. And that's a problem with let's call them the big clients.

>why does deep human connection feel so powerful?
Well, if it feels that way, it probably is, but my point wasn't that that's impossible, the point was that some people go into deep shit and may not be able to find their way out, but in order to help someone like that, you need to go into equally deep shit within yourself and just like very few go there, so very few clients go there and so very few therapists go there either, I would argue even less. Someone like jung was perhaps an exception.

All I'm saying is that even if you genuinely want to be there for that client there for 55 minutes or whatever, just because you want to, doesn't mean you can, and in particular you cannot when the client is in the kind of shit that you have neither heard of nor ever imagined. And you may not be even capable of imagining it or relating to it, because where you are and where the client is is just so far far apart.

And another point I was making is that if you are comfortable in this moment, you won't go into a very uncomfortable place just because you think you care about the client. Unless you already live in that place. And have already integrated that place. I don't know, I don't want to repeat myself, but yeah, good intentions here are not necessarily enough.

>>16912
>just because you want to, doesn't mean you can
>where you are and where the client is is just so far far apart
Therein lies the question of if someone can ever truly get what you're feeling. There are, for sure, different depths of empathy and levels of connection. But I think it can take different forms, and even low levels can have power. A 5-year-old kid might not know what you're going through and decide to give you a rock he found. A cashier might smile at you and you might feel a connection, even if the only words she said to you were your total.
>And another point I was making is that if you are comfortable in this moment, you won't go into a very uncomfortable place just because you think you care about the client. Unless you already live in that place. And have already integrated that place.
>but yeah, good intentions here are not necessarily enough
How good, or should I say how responsible, are these intentions if the therapist prioritizes their own comfort over the discomfort of entering that space with the client?
Integration is important for sure. You mentioned Jung... shadow work has done a lot for me.